Layout
Discuss

LGBTQ Talk

Notes Outline
INTRODUCTION
DEFINE TERMS
JESUS’ STANCE
SO IN LIGHT OF THIS, IS BEING GAY A SIN?
BORN THIS WAY?
JESUS’ WORD TO THE NON-AFFIRMING CROWD
CHURCH AND HOMOSEXUALITY
HOW TO HELP
THREE PATHS ONE COULD TAKE
IS BEING GAY MORE OF A SIN THAN OTHERS?

INTRODUCTION

    1. In the church, because of our tradition we have done an incredibly poor job of loving LGBTQ people! 
    2. Sometimes we need to question our assumptions and traditions.
    3. Is our traditional view on homosexuality right or wrong?
      1. I actually think that it’s both right and wrong. The way we have approached it has many things wrong, even if strictly by the books our opinion may be right. This is not the way of Jesus. He goes far beyond simply having the right opinion on a topic. He reaches down into the way we treat people as the primary test of whether we are walking in the truth.

DEFINE TERMS

    1. We really must consider what the Bible says about this
      1. The question really isn’t over whether a person can live in sexual promiscuity, going around having lots of gay sex with whoever, everyone agrees the Bible is against that for both gay and straight. The question is over same sex, mutual loving, monogamous, consensual marriage relationships.  
      2. So where do we turn? Isn’t it all over the Bible? Actually, there’s only six passages. 

18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” (that which is opposite, that which corresponds) While we could set up the argument with multiple scriptures, this passage is the most significant. The foundation for marriage is in the beginning, and it seems that God created marriage fundamentally to be between two people of the opposite sex. Anything outside of this is not consistent with God’s design for marriage. Can we trust that his patterns actually are life-giving when followed? (Genesis 2:18 NASB 2020)

      1. Mark 10:2-9
        1. Jesus didn’t have to mention the gender differences in this answer, but in his explanation of what marriage is, he brings up the gender differences of Adam and Eve. 
        2. Leviticus 18:22 (NASB 2020): You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination. – Arsenos
        3. Leviticus 20:13 (NASB 2020): If there is a man who sleeps with a male as those who sleep with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they must be put to death. They have brought their own deaths upon themselves. – Arsenos & koitai
          1. What do these mean and do they still apply today?
        4. 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 (NASB 2020): Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.- malakoi arsenokoitai 
      1. This word that Paul uses does not appear anywhere in the Scriptures except in Leviticus where it is broken into two parts, Arsenos & koitan. Could Paul have used compound word created of these two words? If so, could he have use this word without having the Leviticus passage in mind?
      2. The debate isn’t whether or not homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible. Everyone agrees that every time the Bible speaks of homosexuality, it prohibits it. The question then becomes what does the Bible mean when it speaks about homosexuality.  Also, marriage is a significant piece to understanding this question. Is same sex difference an intrinsic part of what it means to bring two people together in marriage? If so, is that simply a cultural artifact according to the Bible or something that is intrinsic to the fabric of creation in the beginning? 
        1. pre-fall examples of marriage or what we must look at.

JESUS’ STANCE

    1. We don’t know, because Jesus never actually addresses the topic of homosexuality. 
      1. However, I believe that Jesus would have a stance on this. It is an argument from silence, but there are good arguments from silence and there are bad arguments from silence.
    2. Jesus would have words to say to both the affirming and non-affirming crowd.
    3. Jesus was a Jew. 
      1. Historically, there were no Jewish writers that took an affirming stance towards gay marriage, not a single one! No one for 500 years before or after Jesus within Judaism.
      2. We would have to completely strip Jesus from his Judaism and re-create him much like ourselves to take the affirming stance.
      3. Jesus‘s Bible was what we called the Old Testament, and it clearly was not affirming towards gay marriage. Again, no one within Judaism debated the meaning of the Leviticus passages.
      4. On sexual matters within Judaism that were debated, such as divorce, Jesus consistently took a more strict stance than his contemporaries or other prior Jewish writers.
      5. There are a host of other ethical issues that Jesus does not address. It would be an argument from silence to say that Jesus was against incest for instance. Somethings are so well established in a historical moment that they don’t need to be brought up, therefore someone is silent on it. 

SO IN LIGHT OF THIS, IS BEING GAY A SIN?

    1. Let’s discuss what a gay orientation might actually mean or refer to first
      1. A general disposition towards attraction to people of the same sex.  The sexual part of this is only a narrow portion of this orientation. Being gay does not mean that you walk around always wanting to have lots of gay sex. Being gay is a disposition towards a desire for conversational intimacy, and same-sex physical touch, emotional bonds, companionship, doing life together, and expressing mutual affection towards people of the same sex. It’s an overall draw toward someone of the same sex that normally would be felt for someone of the opposite sex. Nearness, conversation, overall appreciation of beauty. 
      2. What about when this person is just going about their day, working a job, sleeping… they are still same sex oriented. Do they need to be repenting while they sleep? No, this person’s existence is not the problem. They are not sinful simply due to their felt tendency to be attracted to a certain kind of person. 
      3. The issue arises when these feelings do indeed turn sexual and are willingly acted upon in thought or deed. 
      4. Being gay is not a sin, acting on same-sex sexual desires is.

BORN THIS WAY?

    1. Is someone born gay or do they choose to be?
      1. Would this change whether it’s right or wrong to act upon gay sexual desires?
    2. Should someone use the term, “gay Christian?”

JESUS’ WORD TO THE NON-AFFIRMING CROWD

    1. Jesus consistently lead with love, not with laying down the law, and not with starting off by sharing his stance.   
    2. Jesus conquered with love (centurion, tax collector). 
      1. Jesus takes a firm stance against violence, and yet he doesn’t say to the centurion, “yes, I’ll come heal your daughter, but first I need to share with you my stance on violence.“

CHURCH AND HOMOSEXUALITY

    1. As a church are we really a place that says come as you are? 
      1. We would say this to a whole host of other forms of sin, but many would not say this about a gay couple. 
    2. If we were to follow Jesus, we would actually have more gay friends, not less. 
      1. We all know that there are many who have same-sex attraction tendencies that leave the church, but usually this is not because of the church’s non-affirming stance towards a sexuality, it is because of the church’s non-affirming stance towards their humanity. They’re treated as abominations because of what they experience and they leave.
      2. It comes down to the follower of Jesus that we would lovingly, with broken hearts, ask to leave the church if they continued on in gay sexual practice.

HOW TO HELP

    1. How should we help someone who desires to follow and love Jesus and experience same sex attraction?
      1. Do we help them stop being gay? If so how?
      2. What if they can’t stop experiencing those attractions?
      3. So what are the implications if someone cannot stop being sexually attracted to only the same sex, but they also believe that the Bible teaches that same sex, sexual acts are a sin?
        1. Discuss celibacy 
      4. Provide community and love as they navigate this life without that level of companionship. 
      5. It does not help them to affirm their same-sex sexual desires. We need to be very cautious about loving in such a way that seems affirming towards sin. This will be the greatest difficulty for gen-z.
      6. Steven

THREE PATHS ONE COULD TAKE

    1. Therapy, mixed orientation marriage, celibacy
      1. Met with a friend a few months ago. Encouraged her to stay strong in her journey of obedience, and shared the hope of resurrection and that our bodies will no longer be affected by the fall.

IS BEING GAY MORE OF A SIN THAN OTHERS?

    1. Heterosexual lust. 
    2. Ezekiel 16:49–50 (NASB 2020): Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, plenty of food, and carefree ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 So they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.

49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, plenty of food, and carefree ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 So they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. (Ezekiel 16:49-50 NASB 2020)